[SIP Beyond VoIP] Sylkserver Participant Management

Tue Jul 16 13:20:11 CEST 2013

Can you provide resources for developing such feature?

Adrian

On Jul 16, 2013, at 1:17 PM, Andreas Bachmann <andreas at jibemobile.com> wrote:

> Oh, don¹t get me wrong - this is a simple server config thing. This will
> let the admin define the policy for the server. I would not go that far to
> change the policies for individual sessions.
> 
> Andreas 
> 
> On 16.07.13 13:12, "Adrian Georgescu" <ag at ag-projects.com> wrote:
> 
>> Also there is nothing that makes sense available standards-wise to
>> generate such policy in SIP. XCON working group created something but the
>> complexity of that goes beyond manufacturing a new universe. (the BFCP
>> protocol)
>> 
>> One could invent in-band mechanism like typing chat messages but is
>> pretty ugly.
>> 
>> Adrian
>> 
>> On Jul 16, 2013, at 1:09 PM, Adrian Georgescu <ag at ag-projects.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> On Jul 16, 2013, at 1:04 PM, Andreas Bachmann <andreas at jibemobile.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I think a basic policy set is nice and something u would expect from
>>>> systems like that. That other services as skype for example. There it's
>>>> also not possible for anyone to join any group chat or kick somebody
>>>> if u
>>>> don't have the right to do so.
>>>> 
>>>> I think more than 90% of the use cases can be tackled by a simple
>>>> limited
>>>> set of rules.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> can-add : [creator | anybody]
>>>> can-remove : [creator | invitee | anybody]
>>> 
>>>> If u want to put another one top:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> can-join : [invited | anybody]
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> That prevents anybody to join the group which has not been invited
>>>> before.
>>>> 
>>>> This is not a "I want to have this" - but just a thought on what would
>>>> be
>>>> nice.
>>> 
>>> Yes, is nice to have I agree. Nice to have features also need nice
>>> smart people to donate their resources to do it ;-)
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Andreas Bachmann
>>>> 
>>>> Head of Realtime Communication Engineering
>>>> Jibe Mobile
>>>> 990 N Rengstorff Ave
>>>> Mountain View, CA 94043
>>>> Tel: +1 (650) 336-JIBE
>>>> Fax: +1 (415) 358-4254
>>>> 
>>>> http://www.jibemobile.com/
>>>> 
>>>> On 16.07.13 12:35, "Adrian Georgescu" <ag at ag-projects.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Jul 16, 2013, at 12:18 PM, Michiel Leenaars <michiel.ml at nlnet.nl>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi Adrian,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> It worked well for me, I'm happy to report. I played around with
>>>>>>>> participant management. One thing I noticed: am I correct that I
>>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>>> not only remove people in the room that I had invited to a
>>>>>>>> Sylkserver
>>>>>>>> conference myself - with add_participant user at domain.com - but also
>>>>>>>> other people unrelated to me (as in: my other account when it had
>>>>>>>> registered itself independently to the chatroom)? That seems
>>>>>>>> undesirable
>>>>>>>> to me - some chatbot can come in and kick out all the participants
>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>> all rooms.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> How do you know the room names?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I think security by obscurity works reasonably well for ad hoc
>>>>>> meetings,
>>>>>> although probing is cheap (e.g. dictionary attack). You could add
>>>>>> something to the server that allows to see if someone is trying out
>>>>>> many
>>>>>> different rooms for activity sequentially. That would raise that cost
>>>>>> and help prevent abuse.
>>>>> 
>>>>> How do you try in a sequence a random string?
>>>>> 
>>>>> wfewbehuwgr3uruo3pi503957823bc56 at conference.sip2sip.info
>>>>> 
>>>>> is a valid room.
>>>>> 
>>>>> How to you guess it?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Also trying requires infinite time as a call setup takes several
>>>>> seconds
>>>>> to complete. Then what do you have to gain probing random chat rooms?
>>>>> There is no incentive to do that.
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Other use cases are different from ad hoc conferences like you
>>>>>> mention,
>>>>>> I guess more like a classic IRC channel that is persistent and
>>>>>> publically known.
>>>>> 
>>>>> For this you can define static rooms in server configuration. Only SIP
>>>>> addresses configured for the room can join. Unfortunately SIP does not
>>>>> have primitives for creating room policy.
>>>>> 
>>>>>> This would be akin to a publicly announced conference
>>>>>> room where potentially many people participate over a longer period.
>>>>>> In
>>>>>> that case confidentiality is not the issue, but it would be
>>>>>> embarassing
>>>>>> if thousands of people are dropped off because of one person
>>>>>> trolling.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Well, such lists can be managed out of band, but this is complex
>>>>> functionality.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Remember that SylkServer implements ad-hoc rooms, we never claimed
>>>>> such
>>>>> policy can be managed. Ad hoc simply do not have such advanced policy,
>>>>> there are just simple to use. Simple to use is key, if stuff is
>>>>> complicated and requires management very few adopt it.
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Also, it would be great if someone could somehow be granted a channel
>>>>>> operator role (perhaps not on sip2sip.info service, but in case of a
>>>>>> self installed system).
>>>>> 
>>>>> Well, sky is the limit for developing such advanced features if
>>>>> resources
>>>>> allow it. I also have tons of additions in my head, webrtc end-point,
>>>>> web
>>>>> page management, streaming...
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Yes, it would be nice to have such controls, but without extra
>>>>>>> developments they are not possible out of the box.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Understood. We definitely need more manpower to work on these
>>>>>> important
>>>>>> projects. We can't expect you and your team to solve everything for
>>>>>> us.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>> Michiel Leenaars
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> drs. M.A.G.J. Leenaars
>>>>>> Director of Strategy
>>>>>> NLnet foundation
>>>>>> Science Park 400
>>>>>> 1098 XH Amsterdam
>>>>>> Netherlands
>>>>>> http://nlnet.nl
>>>>>> sip/xmpp: michiel [@t] nlnet.nl
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ---------------
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>>>>>> but you don't know how to help, contribute to NLNet:
>>>>>> they do know and care."
>>>>>>                         Giorgio Maone, NoScript
>>>>>> 
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>>>>>> 
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>>>>>> 
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>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
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>> 
> 